LND: Overall Feelings

[nijil-xnv]

Dec 9, 2011 14:00:29 GMT -6 The-Savage-Nymph said:

Dec 9, 2011 13:48:37 GMT -6 wulphe said:

2. Erik doesn't come to Christine, Christine seeks him out the night before her wedding, and wants to stay with him. I agree HIM leaving her afterwards does piss me off. It's difficult to imagine him doing that.

O.o Makes it even worse for me. She cheats on Raoul (Being with Erik the night before her wedding) AND Erik (Leaving him after having sex once to marry someone else) in one night??? And... HOW can she even tell that the boy is Eriks son then? I mean, Raoul wouldn't understand if she refused him on their wedding night and... musical talent could be hers.

I want to know why the talent can't be hers. That bothers me.

And you know, there are a thousond verisons of phantom in written form and almost all of them Erik and Christine sleep together at some point. Now this i dont understand, because I think its out of Erik's character. Yet, let us not to forget anything except Leroux's original would be taking liberties to be able to fit Erik into "your" idea of a story. It's not like ALW was the first one with this idea. SPOILER AHEAD Susan Kay wrote her book in 1990, which is BEFORE ALW wrote LND and she had Erik and Christine procreate on his deathbed nonetheless. Let it be noted I am NOT condoning this, but, if ALW wants
to change his Erik and make him into someone that would have the audacity to LEAVE Christine after he took her the night before her wedding, it really isn't anymore out of character than a megaplex, than being raised by psychic rats, than having a daughter that he's in love with in another world or whatever, than losing a sword fight to Raoul or being a main character in a erotica novel.

Now, that being said, do I take issue with LND? Why yes, of course I do. But ALW also said it was stupid and it needed to be rewritten. So if he can admit that it sucked in it's first encarnation then I'm interested to see what he did with it to make it somewhat acceptable.

[The-Savage-Nymph]

Dec 9, 2011 15:13:00 GMT -6 nijil-xnv said:

I want to know why the talent can't be hers. That bothers me.

And you know, there are a thousond verisons of phantom in written form and almost all of them Erik and Christine sleep together at some point. Now this i dont understand, because I think its out of Erik's character. Yet, let us not to forget anything except Leroux's original would be taking liberties to be able to fit Erik into "your" idea of a story. It's not like ALW was the first one with this idea. SPOILER AHEAD Susan Kay wrote her book in 1990, which is BEFORE ALW wrote LND and she had Erik and Christine procreate on his deathbed nonetheless. Let it be noted I am NOT condoning this, but, if ALW wants
to change his Erik and make him into someone that would have the audacity to LEAVE Christine after he took her the night before her wedding, it really isn't anymore out of character than a megaplex, than being raised by psychic rats, than having a daughter that he's in love with in another world or whatever, than losing a sword fight to Raoul or being a main character in a erotica novel.

Now, that being said, do I take issue with LND? Why yes, of course I do. But ALW also said it was stupid and it needed to be rewritten. So if he can admit that it sucked in it's first encarnation then I'm interested to see what he did with it to make it somewhat acceptable.

In Lerouxs Novel Erik literally dies of happieness (and sorrow) over one kiss he gave her. On the forehead.
So, you are totally right! ^.^

I just don't want to see it. Childish stubbornness, I guess. And refusal to pay for something I'll hate with 95% possibility. Because there're points that hurt my... dignity in this plot.

[wulphe]

Dec 9, 2011 15:13:00 GMT -6 nijil-xnv said:

Now, that being said, do I take issue with LND? Why yes, of course I do. But ALW also said it was stupid and it needed to be rewritten. So if he can admit that it sucked in it's first encarnation then I'm interested to see what he did with it to make it somewhat acceptable.

That, I can agree with. I don't think LND is perfect, AT ALL. I'm a Leroux-loyalist, so pretty much every version I've seen/read/listened to so far, excluding a few *rare* fanfictions, is automatically sub-par to me. BUT within the non-Leroux adaptations, I'm a lot less harsh of a critic after being so jaded by the worst of the worst.

And really, the original ALW PotO musical does NOT represent Leroux's Phantom accurately either, so to me, LND does follow from it in many aspects. Erik's a lot more sympathetic here, and Christine's kind of an airhead. Within the lyrics of ALW's musical, you could even say Christine is *sexually* attracted to the Phantom, but feels safe with Raoul... A conflict I could see leading ALW's Christine to go back to ALW's Phantom. But then, I can't see "Erik" then leaving her so her only option is to get married to Raoul. That is just silly. Unless maybe ALW was trying to tell a more metaphorical story, which leads me to...

Both musicals are, arguably, representative of ALW's own life/romance with Sarah Brightman.. as has been speculated many times. In this sense, it has even less devotion to Leroux's story, and I have even less reason to pick it apart mercilessly.

[briggspower]

I apologize for my mistakes, but I still don't like LND

[nijil-xnv]

Dec 9, 2011 16:43:27 GMT -6 The-Savage-Nymph said:

Dec 9, 2011 15:13:00 GMT -6 nijil-xnv said:

I want to know why the talent can't be hers. That bothers me.

And you know, there are a thousond verisons of phantom in written form and almost all of them Erik and Christine sleep together at some point. Now this i dont understand, because I think its out of Erik's character. Yet, let us not to forget anything except Leroux's original would be taking liberties to be able to fit Erik into "your" idea of a story. It's not like ALW was the first one with this idea. SPOILER AHEAD Susan Kay wrote her book in 1990, which is BEFORE ALW wrote LND and she had Erik and Christine procreate on his deathbed nonetheless. Let it be noted I am NOT condoning this, but, if ALW wants
to change his Erik and make him into someone that would have the audacity to LEAVE Christine after he took her the night before her wedding, it really isn't anymore out of character than a megaplex, than being raised by psychic rats, than having a daughter that he's in love with in another world or whatever, than losing a sword fight to Raoul or being a main character in a erotica novel.

Now, that being said, do I take issue with LND? Why yes, of course I do. But ALW also said it was stupid and it needed to be rewritten. So if he can admit that it sucked in it's first encarnation then I'm interested to see what he did with it to make it somewhat acceptable.

In Lerouxs Novel Erik literally dies of happieness (and sorrow) over one kiss he gave her. On the forehead.
So, you are totally right! ^.^

I just don't want to see it. Childish stubbornness, I guess. And refusal to pay for something I'll hate with 95% possibility. Because there're points that hurt my... dignity in this plot.

That's the only thing I wonder about. Would I like it if I saw it or just be sad I wasted my money... I'm 95% sure I won't like it either but other 5 % wonders if I could seperate it enough from the original ALW to enjoy it for what it is. Like so many other adaptations.

And as for it being Webber's story about himself and Brightman, the first one I think just fits with it but wasn't done on purpose the second... I could see it but it doesn't really bother me. Heck, we all relate some how with the phantom.

[briggspower]

The DVD of Australian production of LND will be released on March 2012, so we can wait and see!

[nijil-xnv]

Dec 10, 2011 12:37:32 GMT -6 briggspower said:

The DVD of Australian production of LND will be released on March 2012, so we can wait and see!

Awesome! Then I won't have to pay too much for it, hahaha.

[nessundorma345]

Dec 8, 2011 17:13:23 GMT -6 The-Savage-Nymph said:

Dec 8, 2011 17:07:32 GMT -6 nessundorma345 said:

i actually ..... love it. *rant mode below*

well, i mean, obviously it pales in comparison to the original, and some of the score sounds like i composed it (that is in no way a good thing) but it has a wonderfully mysterious and phantom-y feel to it. I've heard all of the jokes about it many times, but it has good moments.
also, don't use the soundtrack to base assumptions on. (specially NOT beauty underneath) so much of it was changed (for the better, i think)
it was one of those times when i just learned to stop complaining, give in, and listen to 'till i hear you sing' on a loop for an hour. There are hidden glimmers beneath all the crap. there is beauty underneath, and you have to look for it. and ignore 'bathing beauty' please?

i have one more thing to say.
"In 2007, it was announced [producton] would be delayed, because Lloyd Webber's six-month-old kitten Otto, a rare-breed Turkish Van, climbed onto Lloyd Webber's Clavinova digital piano and managed to delete the entire score."
WINCAT IS HERE. ;D

But... but... MEG!!! Ugh! And Erik and Christine having a Child and... just... NO. Not on the Musical background at least. I mean... Phantom is so awesome because you are waiting for that one kiss all the time. You KNOW it comes. I heard it on the soundtrack before I even saw the musical and NOW we should believe they had SEX? WHEN???

But what a boring world would it be, if we would all always like the same things, right? ^.^

I agree that the plot was beyond horrible, and the characterizations are so screwed up that it was easier to pity Raoul than the phantom.

Its so easy to see why everybody hates it, but theres just something about it that doesn't let me hate it... idk what

[nijil-xnv]

Dec 10, 2011 13:20:41 GMT -6 nessundorma345 said:

Dec 8, 2011 17:13:23 GMT -6 The-Savage-Nymph said:

But... but... MEG!!! Ugh! And Erik and Christine having a Child and... just... NO. Not on the Musical background at least. I mean... Phantom is so awesome because you are waiting for that one kiss all the time. You KNOW it comes. I heard it on the soundtrack before I even saw the musical and NOW we should believe they had SEX? WHEN???

But what a boring world would it be, if we would all always like the same things, right? ^.^

I agree that the plot was beyond horrible, and the characterizations are so screwed up that it was easier to pity Raoul than the phantom.

Its so easy to see why everybody hates it, but theres just something about it that doesn't let me hate it... idk what

Haha, it's okay! I'm looking forward to seeing it now that I know it's going to be on DVD.

[briggspower]

Dec 10, 2011 15:23:55 GMT -6 nijil-xnv said:

Dec 10, 2011 13:20:41 GMT -6 nessundorma345 said:

I agree that the plot was beyond horrible, and the characterizations are so screwed up that it was easier to pity Raoul than the phantom.

Its so easy to see why everybody hates it, but theres just something about it that doesn't let me hate it... idk what

Haha, it's okay! I'm looking forward to seeing it now that I know it's going to be on DVD.

The advertising was in Phantom 25's DVD. I live in Europe, so I have it ù_ù Poor, unfortunate Americans, who will have to wait March...

[Xadore]

My thoughts on LND:

*WARNING: MASSIVE rant coming up, so bear with me!*

I have not seen LND, and on the whole I do not plan to any time soon. I’ve researched the plot, and looked at several short clips regarding it, and also listened to some of its music, and overall I think it pales in comparison to it wonderful predecessor. I can see that it does appeal to many, phans and non-phans alike, because of its sumptuous costuming and design, not to mention the fact that a lot of people who have seen POTO sympathise ONLY with the Phantom, and are glad that he finally gets his Christine (in a not-so-wholesome way... ), feeling that a man who has been denied so much his whole life deserves a bit of love from his gal. And the music, while not, in my opinion, as beautiful as the original, is definitely catchy, and Til I Hear You Sing and Beneath a Moonless Sky have quite beautiful melodies, even if the lyrics of the latter are just plain uncomfortable to listen to.

I think the main thing that bothers me is that it just does not tie in with the plot of POTO... it just does not make sense in many ways. For example, the climax of POTO comes when Christine is faced with Erik’s ultimatum: if she chooses Erik, he will free Raoul, and if she doesn’t, Erik will kill Raoul, so either way she’s stuck. As for Erik, he totally does not expect her to choose him of her own free will, so that when Christine kisses him, the first time he has ever been the recipient of a gesture of human love, it is her way of saying that she is choosing to stay with him, of her own free will. She loves Raoul, of course (even though I totally support Erik and Chris in fanfiction! XD), but she is willing to stay with Erik if it means that the man she loves can live. This kiss, and Christine’s choice, changes Erik, as he discovers what love truly is, and it is then that his redemption takes place, and he frees them both, now a changed man. Redemption is truly the most beautiful theme of the original story, but LND just ruins that when we discover that Erik and Christine DID IT (on the eve before her wedding, no less!), completely disregarding Erik’s transformation of character in the first musical. In fact, the whole plot of LND just plain contradicts POTO, because it shows that Erik has not really learned anything from before, and has learned no important life lesson from his interactions with Christine.

Also, I hated the fact that they turned Raoul into some abusive drunk who the audience couldn’t help but hate, thus allowing more sympathy for a Phantom who, in LND, seems by his actions to be totally unworthy of sympathy. Really, I liked Raoul in the first musical... I liked how sweet and boyish he was, and how far he went to save Christine from the clutches of his rival.

I have other problems with the musical, but the ones mentioned above are my main dislikes. Again, sorry for the long rant!

[briggspower]

Dec 10, 2011 16:27:14 GMT -6 Xadore said:

My thoughts on LND:

*WARNING: MASSIVE rant coming up, so bear with me!*

I have not seen LND, and on the whole I do not plan to any time soon. I’ve researched the plot, and looked at several short clips regarding it, and also listened to some of its music, and overall I think it pales in comparison to it wonderful predecessor. I can see that it does appeal to many, phans and non-phans alike, because of its sumptuous costuming and design, not to mention the fact that a lot of people who have seen POTO sympathise ONLY with the Phantom, and are glad that he finally gets his Christine (in a not-so-wholesome way... ), feeling that a man who has been denied so much his whole life deserves a bit of love from his gal. And the music, while not, in my opinion, as beautiful as the original, is definitely catchy, and Til I Hear You Sing and Beneath a Moonless Sky have quite beautiful melodies, even if the lyrics of the latter are just plain uncomfortable to listen to.

I think the main thing that bothers me is that it just does not tie in with the plot of POTO... it just does not make sense in many ways. For example, the climax of POTO comes when Christine is faced with Erik’s ultimatum: if she chooses Erik, he will free Raoul, and if she doesn’t, Erik will kill Raoul, so either way she’s stuck. As for Erik, he totally does not expect her to choose him of her own free will, so that when Christine kisses him, the first time he has ever been the recipient of a gesture of human love, it is her way of saying that she is choosing to stay with him, of her own free will. She loves Raoul, of course (even though I totally support Erik and Chris in fanfiction! XD), but she is willing to stay with Erik if it means that the man she loves can live. This kiss, and Christine’s choice, changes Erik, as he discovers what love truly is, and it is then that his redemption takes place, and he frees them both, now a changed man. Redemption is truly the most beautiful theme of the original story, but LND just ruins that when we discover that Erik and Christine DID IT (on the eve before her wedding, no less!), completely disregarding Erik’s transformation of character in the first musical. In fact, the whole plot of LND just plain contradicts POTO, because it shows that Erik has not really learned anything from before, and has learned no important life lesson from his interactions with Christine.

Also, I hated the fact that they turned Raoul into some abusive drunk who the audience couldn’t help but hate, thus allowing more sympathy for a Phantom who, in LND, seems by his actions to be totally unworthy of sympathy. Really, I liked Raoul in the first musical... I liked how sweet and boyish he was, and how far he went to save Christine from the clutches of his rival.

I have other problems with the musical, but the ones mentioned above are my main dislikes. Again, sorry for the long rant!

Totally agree!!!

[asianorange]

Dec 10, 2011 16:27:14 GMT -6 Xadore said:

My thoughts on LND:

*WARNING: MASSIVE rant coming up, so bear with me!*

I have not seen LND, and on the whole I do not plan to any time soon. I’ve researched the plot, and looked at several short clips regarding it, and also listened to some of its music, and overall I think it pales in comparison to it wonderful predecessor. I can see that it does appeal to many, phans and non-phans alike, because of its sumptuous costuming and design, not to mention the fact that a lot of people who have seen POTO sympathise ONLY with the Phantom, and are glad that he finally gets his Christine (in a not-so-wholesome way... ), feeling that a man who has been denied so much his whole life deserves a bit of love from his gal. And the music, while not, in my opinion, as beautiful as the original, is definitely catchy, and Til I Hear You Sing and Beneath a Moonless Sky have quite beautiful melodies, even if the lyrics of the latter are just plain uncomfortable to listen to.

I think the main thing that bothers me is that it just does not tie in with the plot of POTO... it just does not make sense in many ways. For example, the climax of POTO comes when Christine is faced with Erik’s ultimatum: if she chooses Erik, he will free Raoul, and if she doesn’t, Erik will kill Raoul, so either way she’s stuck. As for Erik, he totally does not expect her to choose him of her own free will, so that when Christine kisses him, the first time he has ever been the recipient of a gesture of human love, it is her way of saying that she is choosing to stay with him, of her own free will. She loves Raoul, of course (even though I totally support Erik and Chris in fanfiction! XD), but she is willing to stay with Erik if it means that the man she loves can live. This kiss, and Christine’s choice, changes Erik, as he discovers what love truly is, and it is then that his redemption takes place, and he frees them both, now a changed man. Redemption is truly the most beautiful theme of the original story, but LND just ruins that when we discover that Erik and Christine DID IT (on the eve before her wedding, no less!), completely disregarding Erik’s transformation of character in the first musical. In fact, the whole plot of LND just plain contradicts POTO, because it shows that Erik has not really learned anything from before, and has learned no important life lesson from his interactions with Christine.

Also, I hated the fact that they turned Raoul into some abusive drunk who the audience couldn’t help but hate, thus allowing more sympathy for a Phantom who, in LND, seems by his actions to be totally unworthy of sympathy. Really, I liked Raoul in the first musical... I liked how sweet and boyish he was, and how far he went to save Christine from the clutches of his rival.

I have other problems with the musical, but the ones mentioned above are my main dislikes. Again, sorry for the long rant!

Yeah I agree too. I feel like LND just contradicted the original.

[wulphe]

I can see I'm a definite minority here, lol. I honestly don't mean to seem like an instigator, but as long as we can agree to disagree, I'd like to keep playing devil's advocate. briggspower, there's nothing to apologize for! ^.^ In all honesty, I once said the same exact thing about this musical, so I know where you're coming from. When I first read the script my reaction was like "Seriosuly?! This is a bad episode of Jerry Springer!! I hate you ALW!"

In response to Xadore:
Yeah.. lyrics generally sucked throughout. Too Disney-esque in some places, just plain awkward in others. I was disappointed by the score, comparatively. I love practically every song in the original, but only a handful of the LND ones.

Still, the only thing that I can't explain is the Phantom leaving Christine after he FINALLY gets the girl. Does not compute.

The Phantom has changed in LND though... other than leaving Christine like a (insert colorful phrase). I mean, he doesn't kidnap her, he just kinda lies... after ten years he really just wants to hear her sing one last time, and she's pretty dense to not see "Phantasma" and think "Hmm... maybe Mister Y could be a certain Phantom!" But, that's Christine for you.

I don't see how Christine and Erik.. umm "doing it".. means that Erik hasn't been redeemed/changed. Christine comes to him. Hell, maybe she's one of those nervous brides who second guesses her reasons for marriage right before her wedding (cheap stereotyping, but it does seem to happen). Up until him leaving her (like a *#$@%!) he's pretty blameless. Even if he realized he loves her enough to let her go, that doesn't mean he should refuse to enact those same feelings of love if she chooses to seek him out.
And Christine going back to Raoul from that point is kinda her only option. She's factoring the possibility that she may now be pregnant without the father in sight, in a few months she'd be unmarriable and left to raise a child alone. (Again, here's why the Phantom can be called many 4-letter words). Keep in mind, she decided to STAY with Erik, not just sleep with him then run back to Raoul. Erik made that impossible. (@$%#*^&!)

I can tell you from the perspective of one obsessed, that just because you change doesn't mean you're immune to weakness. I severely wronged the man I (still) love and the guilt I live with weighs on me every time we talk, but as much as I hope I could be strong around him, if he ever mislead me I'd probably follow with blind hope. I have a weakness for him, and I fear his power to lead me back to that dark place. I did learn my lesson, but sometimes love feels like it's worth sacrificing your soul to if there's even a chance it might work.

I.. didn't hate Raoul either. I actually found him and Meg to be very sympathetic characters. It's like freakin' Shakespeare with all the tragedy ALW's dishing out here! Poor, sweet naive Raoul got dealt a nasty hand in the last 10 years. So did Meg, who tried so hard to please Erik but was never noticed over his obsession.

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart, but I think there were many touching moments. Similarly, I dislike 70% of Robert Englund's PotO movie, but that other 30% has a few gems in it, worthy of some kind words. It's entirely possible ALW didn't give this as much thought as he should have (and in places this is at least a little bit true). This is just the way I humanize/rationalize the characters. People do crazy things, especially when it comes to love, and life can lead you to strange places... O.o

[nessundorma345]

I'm going to continue to beat this dead horse, k all???

Now, on the topic of 'oh, it's a stand-alone piece, not a sequel, durr hurr'

Mine- and everyone else's -thoughts on that are 'well, it bloody well sounds like a sequel to me!!!(speaking of beating a dead horse)'

I personally like to pretend he wasn't as stupid as that statement made him sound and he meant that it had a very different feel to it than the original and if you didn't like it, then you didn't have to have anything to do with it! (tada!!!)

What he didn't count for, though, is how much fun it is to pick apart all the horrible things about this musical and showcase them, like the idiocy of making a statement like 'its not a sequel'

Just to pose the question, what specifically did you think was the worst thing about the sequel? Because me, I 100% hated 'Once Upon Another Time' (the song would be boring even to 5-year-olds in a Disney movie)